Antenna TV channels in New York
48 stations broadcast free TV around New York, carrying 82 channels including Subchannel An extra channel a station sends alongside its main one, like 2.2 or 2.3. More in the glossary . The full-power stations transmit from several sites, so the direction to aim depends on where you live.
Updated from FCC data
How well antenna TV works around New York
For the big networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS) that reach each home, an indoor antenna is likely enough for about <1% of people in the New York market; about 98% need an attic or roof antenna, and for about 2% reception depends on the exact spot. A typical home gets about 82 free channels from 42 stations, some from neighbouring markets.
Estimates from our terrain predictions for an antenna about 30 ft up, adjusted for indoor use. They are not yet checked against real channel scans; VHF channels never count as indoor. How we work it out
Each network's reach
| Network | Reaches | Indoor likely |
|---|---|---|
| ABC | 97% | 0% |
| CBS | 94% | 90% |
| NBC | 95% | 88% |
| FOX | 94% | 84% |
| PBS | 96% | 83% |
| The CW | 95% | 3% |
| Univision | 95% | 90% |
| Telemundo | 95% | 88% |
Share of the market's 21,183k people, across its 965 ZIP codes.
Town by town
| Town | Antenna | Point | Channels |
|---|---|---|---|
| New York ZIP 11213 | Attic or outdoor | northwest (317°) | 97 |
| Newark ZIP 07102 | Attic or outdoor | east (93°) | 67 |
| Jersey City ZIP 07304 | Attic or outdoor | east (84°) | 82 |
| Yonkers ZIP 10703 | Attic or outdoor | south-southwest (202°) | 64 |
| Paterson ZIP 07501 | Attic or outdoor | southeast (146°) | 67 |
| Bridgeport ZIP 06604 | Attic or outdoor | southwest (233°, most) | 105 |
| Elizabeth ZIP 07201 | Attic or outdoor | east-northeast (70°) | 109 |
| Stamford ZIP 06905 | Attic or outdoor | southwest (224°) | 79 |
| Norwalk ZIP 06854 | Attic or outdoor | southwest (230°, most) | 89 |
| Trenton ZIP 08608 | Attic or outdoor | west-southwest (244°, most) | 152 |
| Clifton ZIP 07013 | Attic or outdoor | southeast (138°) | 67 |
| Danbury ZIP 06810 | Attic or outdoor | east (85°, most) | 8 |
| New Rochelle ZIP 10801 | Attic or outdoor | southwest (221°) | 82 |
| Bayonne ZIP 07002 | Attic or outdoor | northeast (56°) | 119 |
| Mount Vernon ZIP 10550 | Attic or outdoor | southwest (214°) | 73 |
For the ZIP nearest each town's centre. Tap a town for its full channel list.
What channel is each network on in New York?
| Network | Channel | Station |
|---|---|---|
 CBS | 2.1 | WCBS-TV |
 NBC | 4.1 | WNBC |
 ABC | 7.1 | WABC-TV |
 FOX | 5.1 | WNYW |
 PBS | 13.1 also 21.1, 49.1, 50.1, 58.1 | WNET |
 The CW | 11.1 | WPIX |
 MyNetworkTV | 9.1 | WWOR-TV |
 ION | 31.1 | WPXN-TV |
 Telemundo | 47.1 | WNJU |
 Univision | 41.1 also 67.3 | WXTV-DT |
 UniMás | 67.2 also 68.1 | WFTY-DT |
The best TV antenna for New York
Get an antenna rated for both VHF and UHF. For most homes an attic or outdoor antenna is the safe choice; by our estimate an indoor one is likely enough for only about 1% of people.
- 16 channels reach ordinary TVs only on VHF (WABC-TV, WNET, WJLP, WNJN, WNJB), and many flat indoor antennas are weak on VHF.
- The towers are spread out, so a wide-beam (multi-directional) antenna is safer than a narrow directional one.
Not sure about VHF Lower frequencies (RF 2–13). Needs an antenna with longer elements; many flat indoor antennas are weak here. More in the glossary and UHF Higher frequencies (RF 14–36). Most stations are here; almost any antenna picks it up. More in the glossary ? See the glossary. Any brand of the right type will do.
Which way to point your antenna from Newark, Jersey City, Yonkers and nearby
Aim at the main tower site (WLIW, WJLP, WRNN-TV, WWOR-TV and others). From the largest towns around New York:
| From | Point | Distance |
|---|---|---|
| Newark, NJ | east (95°) | 8 mi |
| Jersey City, NJ | east (88°) | 3 mi |
| Yonkers, NY | south-southwest (205°) | 18 mi |
| Bridgeport, CT | southwest (233°) | 54 mi |
| Trenton, NJ | northeast (49°) | 52 mi |
| Hempstead, NY | west (272°) | 21 mi |
| Long Branch, NJ | north (358°) | 29 mi |
12 full-power stations transmit from elsewhere: WPIX (3 mi away), WXTV-DT (3 mi away), WABC-TV (3 mi away), WFUT-DT (3 mi away), WEDW (3 mi away), WZME (3 mi away), WTBY-TV (3 mi away), WNYE-TV (3 mi away), WNJN (26 mi away), WNJB (26 mi away), WFTY-DT (57 mi away), WLNY-TV (59 mi away). If you live near one of them, it may need a separate aim.
Where the New York TV towers are
Map of 18 tower sites around New York. The list below has every site.
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13 stations · 5 mi northwest of the centre
WLIWWJLPWRNN-TVWWOR-TVWNBCWMBC-TVWPXN-TVWNJUWNETWNYWWCBS-TVWKOB-LDWNWT-LD
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10 stations · 6 mi north-northwest of the centre
WPIXWXTV-DTWABC-TVWFUT-DTWEDWWZMEWTBY-TVWDYA-LDWDYJ-LDWXNY-LD
-
7 stations · 6 mi north-northwest of the centre
-
2 stations · 5 mi south of the centre
-
2 stations · 19 mi west-northwest of the centre
-
2 stations · 30 mi west of the centre
-
1 station · 7 mi north-northwest of the centre
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1 station · 21 mi north of the centre
-
1 station · 54 mi east-northeast of the centre
-
1 station · 56 mi east-northeast of the centre
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1 station · 86 mi east-northeast of the centre
NextGen TV (ATSC 3.0) in New York
3 stations (WLIW, WNYZ-LD, WPIX) now send the newer NextGen TV (ATSC 3.0) A newer broadcast format. Older TVs can't decode it, so stations also send the old format from a partner station. More in the glossary format. Older TVs can't decode it, so stations share: each channel that moved is also sent in the old format by a partner station (a Lighthouse (channel sharing) One station switches to NextGen TV and carries other stations' 3.0 versions; partners carry its old-format version. More in the glossary arrangement). Your TV shows the same number; at most you need a Rescan Asking your TV to search for channels again. Fixes most missing channels. More in the glossary .
WLIW sends NextGen TV on RF 32
- 21.1 PBS: ordinary TVs get it from no partner in our data
WNYZ-LD sends NextGen TV on RF 6
Our data lists no channels of its own on the NextGen signal yet.
WPIX sends NextGen TV on RF 11
- 11.1 The CW: ordinary TVs get it from no partner in our data
- 11.2 network unknown: ordinary TVs get it from no partner in our data
- 11.4 Rewind TV: ordinary TVs get it from no partner in our data
Every New York station and subchannel
Including Class A and low-power stations Smaller stations with a shorter range than full-power ones. More in the glossary stations. 3 subchannels have no confirmed network; we show them as "network unknown" rather than guess.
Full power (23)
- WCBS-TV New York, NY · UHF
- 2.1 CBS
- 2.2 Start TV
- 2.3 Dabl
- 2.4 365BLK
- 2.5 Comet
- WNBC New York, NY · UHF
- 4.1 NBC
- WNYW New York, NY · UHF
- 5.1 Fox
- 5.2 Movies!
- 5.3 Fox Weather
- 5.4 Roar
- 5.5 Catchy Comedy
- WABC-TV New York, NY · VHF
- 7.1 ABC
- 7.2 Localish
- 7.3 Charge!
- 7.4 HSN
- WWOR-TV Secaucus, NJ · UHF
- 9.1 MyNetworkTV
- 9.3 Buzzr
- 9.4 Heroes & Icons
- WPIX New York, NY · VHF · NextGen TV
- 11.1 The CW
- 11.2 network unknown
- 11.4 Rewind TV
- WNET Newark, NJ · VHF
- 13.1 PBS
- 13.2 PBS Kids
- 13.3 World
- WLIW Garden City, NY · UHF · NextGen TV
- 21.1 PBS
- WNYE-TV New York, NY · UHF
- 25.1 Educational independent
- 25.2 NYC Municipal Government events
- 25.3 CUNY TV
- WPXN-TV New York, NY · UHF
- 31.1 Ion Television
- 31.2 Bounce TV
- 31.3 Grit
- 31.4 Court TV
- 31.5 Ion Plus
- 31.6 Game Show Central
- 31.7 Busted
- 31.8 QVC
- WJLP Middletown Township, NJ · VHF
- 33.1 MeTV
- 33.2 MeTV Toons
- 33.3 Laff
- 33.4 network unknown
- 33.6 The Nest
- 33.7 Story Television
- 33.8 MeTV+
- WXTV-DT Paterson, NJ · UHF
- 41.1 Univision
- WZME Bridgeport, CT · UHF
- 43.1 Story Television
- WNJU Linden, NJ · UHF
- 47.1 Telemundo
- 47.2 TeleXitos
- WRNN-TV New Rochelle, NY · UHF
- 48.1 Shop LC
- WEDW Stamford, CT · UHF
- 49.1 PBS
- WNJN Montclair, NJ · VHF
- 50.1 PBS (NJ PBS)
- WTBY-TV Jersey City, NJ · UHF
- 54.1 TBN
- WLNY-TV Riverhead, NY · UHF
- 55.1 Independent
- 55.2 QVC2
- 55.3 HSN2
- 55.4 HSN
- 55.5 Nosey
- 55.6 Defy
- WNJB New Brunswick, NJ · VHF
- 58.1 PBS (NJ PBS)
- WMBC-TV Newton, NJ · UHF
- 63.1 Estrella TV
- 63.2 Ion Mystery
- 63.4 NTD America
- 63.5 NTD Television
- 63.6 Jewelry TV
- 63.7 Aliento Vision
- 63.9 Korean Christian Broadcasting Network
- 63.10 WDNJ 88.1 FM
- WFTY-DT Smithtown, NY · UHF
- 67.1 True Crime Network
- 67.2 UniMás
- 67.3 Univision
- 67.4 Grit
- 67.5 Ion Mystery
- 67.6 Shop LC
- 67.8 [Blank]
- WFUT-DT Newark, NJ · UHF
- 68.1 UniMás
- 68.2 True Crime Network
- 68.3 Great
Class A (2)
Low power (17)
- W09CZ-D Roslyn, NY · VHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WHTV-LD New York, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WNMF-LD New York, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WNWT-LD New York, NY · VHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- W02CY-D New York, NY · VHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- W20CQ-D Hempstead, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WASA-LD Port Jervis, NY · VHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WDYA-LD New York, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WDYJ-LD New York, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WKOB-LD New York, NY · VHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WLIG-LD Plainview, Etc., NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WNYN-LD New York, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WNYX-LD East Orange, NJ · VHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WNYZ-LD New York, NY · VHF · NextGen TV
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WPXU-LD Amityville, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WXGN-LD Danbury, CT · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- WXNY-LD New York, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
Translator (6)
- W30FI-D New York, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- W05DJ-D New York, NY · VHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- W20FF-D Teaneck, NJ · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- W23EX-D Sussex, NJ · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- W25FA-D New York, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
- W29FY-D New York, NY · UHF
No channel lineup in our data for this station yet.
Questions about antenna TV in New York
What channels are CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX on antenna in New York?
What local channels can I get with an antenna in New York?
What is the best TV antenna for New York?
Which way should I point my antenna in New York?
Do I need a new TV for NextGen TV (ATSC 3.0) in New York?
For the curious: tower and licence details
- WLIW · facility 38336 · RF 32 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 72 kW · HAAT 495.6 m · licensed 2024-07-18
- WJLP · facility 86537 · RF 3 (VHF-low) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 40 kW · HAAT 476 m · licensed 2025-12-03 · newer construction permit granted
- WRNN-TV · facility 74156 · RF 25 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 57.8 kW · HAAT 520 m · licensed 2018-05-21
- WWOR-TV · facility 74197 · RF 25 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 57.8 kW · HAAT 520 m · licensed 2018-05-21 · newer construction permit granted
- WKOB-LD · facility 51441 · RF 13 (VHF-high) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 3 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2022-09-07
- WNBC · facility 47535 · RF 35 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 575 kW · HAAT 496 m · licensed 2023-10-12
- WMBC-TV · facility 43952 · RF 18 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 250 kW · HAAT 520 m · licensed 2022-08-05 · newer construction permit granted
- WPXN-TV · facility 73356 · RF 34 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 170 kW · HAAT 520 m · licensed 2019-10-21
- WNWT-LD · facility 22797 · RF 3 (VHF-low) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 40 kW · HAAT 476 m · licensed 2025-12-03
- WNJU · facility 73333 · RF 35 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 575 kW · HAAT 496 m · licensed 2023-10-12
- WNET · facility 18795 · RF 12 (VHF-high) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 6.5 kW · HAAT 507.8 m · licensed 2023-10-12
- WNYW · facility 22206 · RF 27 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 92.8 kW · HAAT 496 m · licensed 2019-08-09 · newer construction permit granted
- WCBS-TV · facility 9610 · RF 36 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 548 kW · HAAT 520 m · licensed 2023-10-12 · newer construction permit granted
- WNYN-LD · facility 74305 · RF 30 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 15 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2025-01-27
- W30FI-D · facility 167314 · RF 30 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 15 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2025-01-27
- WNYZ-LD · facility 56043 · RF 6 (VHF-low) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 3 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2022-03-22
- W29FY-D · facility 128222 · RF 29 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 2.56 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2022-11-03
- WHTV-LD · facility 127812 · RF 31 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 15 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2021-07-29
- WNMF-LD · facility 74513 · RF 20 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 6.02 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2024-12-18
- W02CY-D · facility 130477 · RF 2 (VHF-low) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 0.5 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2022-01-04
- W20FF-D · facility 74502 · RF 20 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 6.02 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2024-12-18 · reduced power
- WASA-LD · facility 167320 · RF 2 (VHF-low) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 0.3 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2022-09-07
- WPXU-LD · facility 2129 · RF 29 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 2.56 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2022-11-03
- WPIX · facility 73881 · RF 11 (VHF-high) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 26 kW · HAAT 405 m · licensed 2023-12-12
- WXTV-DT · facility 74215 · RF 26 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 275 kW · HAAT 397 m · licensed 2023-12-12 · newer construction permit granted
- WDYA-LD · facility 130470 · RF 33 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 15 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2025-01-07
- WABC-TV · facility 1328 · RF 7 (VHF-high) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 34 kW · HAAT 405 m · licensed 2023-12-12
- WFUT-DT · facility 60555 · RF 26 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 275 kW · HAAT 397 m · licensed 2021-12-17 · newer construction permit granted
- WDYJ-LD · facility 60554 · RF 33 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 15 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2025-01-07 · newer construction permit granted
- WXNY-LD · facility 29231 · RF 23 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 3.25 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2022-02-07
- WEDW · facility 13594 · RF 21 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 210 kW · HAAT 428 m · licensed 2023-03-24 · distributed transmission
- WZME · facility 70493 · RF 21 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 210 kW · HAAT 428 m · licensed 2023-03-24 · distributed transmission
- WTBY-TV · facility 67993 · RF 23 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 7 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2023-03-01
- WNYE-TV · facility 6048 · RF 24 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 180 kW · HAAT 309.7 m · licensed 2021-04-29
- W09CZ-D · facility 67859 · RF 9 (VHF-high) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 3 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2024-08-02
- W25FA-D · facility 130475 · RF 25 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 0.12 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2022-10-18 · reduced power · newer construction permit granted
- W05DJ-D · facility 127813 · RF 5 (VHF-low) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 0.57 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2020-09-11 · reduced power · newer construction permit granted
- WNYX-LD · facility 14311 · RF 4 (VHF-low) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 0.3 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2025-05-23 · newer construction permit granted
- WEPT-CD · facility 30429 · RF 28 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 15 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2024-04-19
- W20CQ-D · facility 168738 · RF 20 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 5 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2014-07-08
- WLIG-LD · facility 9378 · RF 17 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 1 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2021-07-06 · newer construction permit granted
- WNJN · facility 48477 · RF 8 (VHF-high) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 40.82 kW · HAAT 218 m · licensed 2018-01-25
- WNJB · facility 48457 · RF 8 (VHF-high) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 40.82 kW · HAAT 218 m · licensed 2018-01-25
- W23EX-D · facility 48466 · RF 23 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 3.87 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2019-08-09
- WFTY-DT · facility 60553 · RF 23 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 655 kW · HAAT 219 m · licensed 2012-05-31 · newer construction permit granted
- WLNY-TV · facility 73206 · RF 29 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 1000 kW · HAAT 193.9 m · licensed 2024-10-17
- WXGN-LD · facility 31642 · RF 27 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 15 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2024-09-06
- WVVH-CD · facility 70158 · RF 18 (UHF) · ERP (effective radiated power) Transmitter power after the antenna's gain, in kilowatts. More in the glossary 15 kW · HAAT not filed · licensed 2020-01-24
Where this comes from
- Stations, towers, channels and power: FCC Licensing and Management System (LMS) public database, data of .
- Networks and subchannels: our affiliations dataset, built from Wikipedia (used under CC BY-SA 4.0), the network field stations file with the FCC, and station websites; checked . Credits.
- Towns and distances: US Census Bureau: Vintage 2025 city population estimates (SUB-EST2025) and 2026 Gazetteer place coordinates; distances are straight-line from each town's Census centre point.
- Reception: Reception predictions over USGS terrain for every ZIP, FCC data 2026-11-03 00:00:00 (model 2026-11-11.4)
- Market area: Market area: counties assigned by FCC service-contour coverage of each market's full-power stations (FCC LMS market list, Census 2020).
Updated How we work this out